Chestnut Transcript

On Survivor Identity

I think survivor in a very literal sense, like we think about survivors of wars and these more physical traumatic events. But I do think persons who have survived domestic violence or abusive relationships of any sort, like whether it be more psychological or physical, are survivors. It's not a title I bring up all that often, but I do consider myself a survivor of that because I got out of a situation that could have gone on, I mean went on over 10 years, um, and it could have gone on the rest of my life.

I- I started therapy to get out of that situation and then worked through getting out of it and then continued therapy afterwards. So I would definitely consider myself surviving that- that event, or that portion- that portion of my life.

People don't, I don't want to say they want to downplay, but I think when you get used to maybe putting yourself second, or maybe even lower than that, you maybe don't want to take on that title. Maybe it seems too grandiose for some people when they're used to putting themselves not as a first or priority, but that's something, I would probably gladly use that term.

On Disenfranchised Grief

I know for myself, I feel like people often go into things with a very blind, like binary way of thinking. So, it's like, if it doesn't fit into this, it is either this or that. And I think abusive relationships can be so complicated because there's like psychological abuse, physical abuse, somewhere in between, and, and manipulation. So, I think it's really easy to get overlooked or to be ignored or to maybe be seen as like, um, 'Oh, that couple like bickers' or 'They don't get along or don't see eye to eye', when like, there's actually something deeper going on.

So, I think often with my situation, it wasn't understood because I was constantly defending it. So, I was quick to try to justify all of it. I did a really good job kind of covering it up and masking it, but I also didn't believe I could accept better. So I think that's a big part of growing up in a household where, you know, homosexuality, queerness wasn't accepted. The bar was really low for me. I did a really good job of not allowing people to see what was going on, because I don't know if I could even process or see what was going on. And that was maybe, denying- denying myself other options or a more happy future, I don't think I could see it for a long time.

On The Story of Domestic Violence

So with my situation, I was 15 and I had grown up in a very homophobic household, racist household, very religious, like very extreme, to the point now, I mean they were considered- they considered themselves Catholic, but they were excommunicated from the Catholic Church, so I like to just refer to it as a cult because that's what it was.

And there was, you know, some levels of, like, love and acceptance, but it was a very homophobic household, so that was something I grew up with from the time I was a child. And that was very damaging, and I went through probably a large period of, like, my- when I reached double digits, where I was very depressed and very sad and then, you know, over time, there were more media outlets that kind of told me I was okay. It was at a time when MTV was doing programming that they'd had like Sex in the 90's and all these things that kind of counteracted what I was being told. Like, it's okay to have- to have sexuality, it's okay to be gay. And like, it was really, really important that I had things like that because that was kind of a lifeline, I didn't have anything else really doing that for me. Um, so I kind of had glimmers of hope and I had went to Catholic school, but I had some progressive friends who, you know, made me feel a little bit more comfortable and was discovering music and, you know- getting into doing drugs a little bit, too, psychedelic drugs, which was, you know, like, allowing me to have different levels of self expression and understanding.

But when I was 15, I met a man who was 36 at the time. And for me, as soon as he showed me, like, any sort of attention, that was it for me. I couldn't have imagined- because I never imagined that I could have any sort of like love or companionship, sexuality, all kind of intertwined, not really understanding the differences of them and with no education, no emotional education, no sexual education because, Catholics.

So yeah, so when I met this man, um, really quickly, he put on me that I was like, his only chance, and his only hope, and he'd given up on love. As I've reached that age of like 36, and you know, now I'm 41, I'm like, holy fuck, like who would want to- I- I don't want to sound messed up if I say this, but I understand because queerness is so shunned and off to the side, that very often people's first sexual experiences aren't always age le-legal. And that to me, I'm not saying that's fine or okay, but it's just a fact that I've learned over time from talking to queer people. And that, I can kind of deal with better than this person trying to date a 15 year old, which is absolutely crazy.

Um, so yeah, very quickly he had planted the seeds of like, this is it, this is the only thing for me. And me, not having ever seen a queer future, or a gay future of any sort, just- was all in, I was absolutely all in. And the manipulation started really quickly from the beginning. So as I turned 16, my- my parents were, were in the process of divorcing. My mom was moving out, and moving to a different state.

So, I had paperwork signed that I could just get my own apartment and I dropped out of high school, started working full time. And very quickly I was supporting this person too. That was the dynamic of like, he had me believing that he was keeping my life on track and in order, and in- in some ways there were some things he protected me from, but it was really manipulative and it was very one sided, and I was the one, you know, supporting him and you know, financially and emotionally, and there was no sort of equality. There was no- um, I wasn't able to explore or grow, everything was always on his terms, and what he thought was okay, and what he- what he thought was acceptable. Within a year or two- it's sort of hard because it was so long ago to think like when it started, but like the yelling and his just like, his ability to control any and every situation.

We were, we were living together. There was like, we had a roommate and my brother and myself, and then we got, we lived together for two years. And, um, I think it got worse when we moved into another apartment. It was just the three of us, and he got into a physical fight with my brother, because my brother had kind of had enough of this sort of like, this person ruling our lives and just kind of his way or the highway. So my brother stood up to him, and got into a physical altercation with him. And that sort of put a wedge between my brother and myself for a few years. And then at that time, it was sort of he and I against the world. So having my brother out of my life, who was like my best friend and the person I spent the most amount of time with, really allowed him to be more like the only presence in my life. Um, and at that time, you know, I was working full time and working overtime and just supporting him, um, and myself.

Uh, that- so we were there for a few years together and then my father passed away when I was 20, and at that time he was caregiving for my grandfather, so my grandfather needed a place to live. So, Mark, or the Yeti, and I took on my grandfather. We bought a house and took on taking care of him, and that was like really when he locked in control, because he was really good taking care of my grandfather. And, you know, I'm like 21, and my dad had just died, and I'm just trying to figure out life. And there was just no room for real development of what a 21 year old should be able to do, or experience, or see. And I remember when I would articulate that and say, like- like, this isn't fair, or this is manipulative, or whatever it is. He would just, like, laugh at me or taunt me, but always kind of had- like held all the cards. Um, but yeah, it was just a really, really awful, awful person and never stepped back and looked at what I- what my needs would have been, or what I needed to be, to be a well adjusted adult. Um, and eventually, because I was a bit more independent at that time, I was able to meet people who like, were able to spark that this wasn't okay, and that the situation hadn't been okay, and it continued to not be okay.

But I had- I had my big aha moment for how awful the situation was, is when my niece turned 15, because I was like I'd always defended this- this relationship, the situation that he had, you know, kept me on track and he was there for me, my parents were there for me- but like in hindsight, my parents were never actually there for me. Um, and when my niece turned 15, I was like wow, she was dating a 36 year old right now I would not be okay with that. And that's a similar situation I've heard from other survivors where like, they're okay with what happened to them as a kid, and then they have kids and they're like, 'Okay, well, if someone did that to my kid, I wouldn't be okay with that'. So I really- that really resonates with me and I get very frustrated when people don't accept people changing their narrative because it's like, you absolutely have the right to and your perspective shifts. And often, perspective shifts slowly but sometimes you just have that like aha light bulb moment and that was one for me, um, where I was like, what the, what the hell am I defending here? And at that point I was, you know, taking care of him. Um, and- and still being very manipulated.

So, you know, in terms of- in terms of the abuse, you know, things were physical maybe a couple times, but it was never, it was mostly psychological, and just control and manipulation. And, I don't spend a ton of time thinking about what his intentions were like whether it was subconscious or conscious But it was very, very awful and very- like, to control- to want to control somebody that much just completely- um, there was a lot of un- de-programming to do.

I think, like around 24, 25 I, um, was still caring for Mark, but had, um, had met somebody and we started a relationship and I was like, 'Well, you know, I have my ex in my house, I'm still taking care of him', and he was good- we were together for just over a year- but he was good at kind of pointing out that, like, I really needed to wrap up this manipulation.

On Tools

Um, I, um, had gotten into partying a lot, in like a really self destructive way, not in like a like hippy- dippy, find- myself way, it was just like escapism, escapism. And I did chemical dependency therapy for a couple sessions and I was like, I don't really think this is like what's going on. I didn't feel like it was for me. And I connected with a therapist who was really getting to the root of the problem. And she was great. And Lisa like completely sorted me out because I went to her and just said, like, 'I know I need to get this person out of my house and out of my life, but I can't face it, and I can't do it. I don't know what to do.' And like, I saw her every week, if not more than one session a week, if I needed, and she really helped me get him physically out of my house. Um, and to lean into the support that I had, I had some really good friends in my life who like showed up and helped me pack him up and get him out of my house. But, what I learned through therapy really helped get me to where I am today, getting him out of my life was really important for me moving on. And continuing therapy after that, um, for years- I probably saw her for the better part of 10 years and then, you know, just to work through that whole situation and, and figuring out how to prioritize myself and just- just a lot of healing from not having that time period of my life, um, for myself.

On Support

And I remember people periodically telling me like, this is not okay. It's not acceptable, but I wasn't really ready to hear that or able to hear that. Um, and that's something that's carried over to how I try to communicate to people now. If I see somebody in a bad situation, whether it be related to a relationship or something else, trying to talk to them in a way where they have open ears so they can actually hear what I'm trying to say and like not saying it at the wrong time, like actively listening and in a conversation to like maybe prompt them to get reflective and have them come to that conclusion versus like, 'This is good'. 'This is bad'. 'This is what you should be doing'.

Um, there's a younger gentleman who's come into my life recently, uh, he just turned 23 and had been in kind of a similar situation from like 19 to 22. And, um, eventually kind of saw through what was happening, you know, with an older person, supporting them. Kind of similar things without the underage, the underage component and, um, was able to break out of that relationship and it was really nice to see that and to see how he's developed and just celebrated his first pride out in Buffalo this past weekend and just to kind of like be there and be supportive, but also, um, I'm seeing there's certain lessons that he needs to learn in life and he kind of has to like figure them out and then as things like flop or fail, like, you know, we have his back and and introducing him to good people in the community that can look out for him, um, so he can learn these lessons.

Because that was one thing that Mark used to try to do with me, he would be attempting to protect me or like, something that- he was probably right, but he would just like scream it at me. So at that point, you know, I- yelling isn't really a form of communication, so as soon as like a voice is raised, I can't really hear, like I stop listening and just get emotional. So there- there had been like, this element of- I mean hate to even say well- intention, but I think there was, in some twisted way, well intentions coming from Mark. But, ended up being very selfish and misguided and self serving and manipulative and just unhealthy there's been a lot to undo, because if we think of like 15 to 25, there's so much development that happens there. And like, constantly being under somebody else's watch and having to report in, and just this completely controlled environment- mental environment that I lived in, and physical.

And, and, and the thing I said about the active listening and trying to like be a better mentor for younger people, especially it tends to be in the queer community, it applies to other things, you know, for, for them raising the bar standard for what they accept. Driving the point home that like, people don't have access to your body. And I think this is something a lot of teens and early 20's could use to hear, and have reiterated, and driven home- like, just because someone showed you attention or it feels good or whatever, doesn't mean they have access to your person and your body. Um, and I've just been trying to drive that home a lot, in a way that people can hear it and understand it and process it, cause it's really important to have people raise the bar for what, uh, what they accept. I think young people are really susceptible and I think we did, we did lose out on a generation of mentors and role models, um, with HIV, and I think we are finally getting to a point where we have like- I've, I've had older gay couples that have been in my life, that have been a good influence on me, and I know, like, my partner and I have been together 15 years, um, we can be a good role model for other people, and that's something that we really try to, try to work on.

On The Healing Journey

 My partner of 15 years, he was, like, so instrumental to helping me deal with this stuff, and he would just, like, physically get me to calm down, like, he would hold me and be like, 'You can relax, you can relax'. Because I was just so tightly wound from all those years of being on edge. And that was really key. And I'm still, like, I can be a bit spastic and tightly wound and uptight. But I also know it and, like, I'm aware and I catch myself. And, like, I- you know, it's been a lot of therapy. But that was really important to have somebody, like, look out for me in that way and show me that level of kindness and patience. Um, and he's a very easygoing person and very happy go lucky and just like kind and sweet. And that was like a great balance off of, um, you know, the situation I'd just come out of.

Words of Care

One thing that I would say to people who are healing from abuse is that there isn't a specific time frame that you need to be on, and that you have to take the time and space. There's not a specific calendar or like a date or time to how these things work. I like to use the analogy of like, crawling, walking, running.

And, I feel like when you're first getting out of a bad situation, you're crawling, because you- you're new, fresh to being out of it. So if you- if you have- if you experience hardships or setbacks, whatever they might be, little or small, you don't fall that far. You're- you're already low to the ground. When you start walking, if you fall, it's not as, you know, it's- you're- you're higher up, so it's a little bit of a harder fall. Um, but once you're really smooth sailing and running and you caught your stride and then something hits you and sets you back, that impact of hitting can be really harsh. So just- just to give yourself kindness and as much space as you need, because the way you make progress, and then get catapulted backwards, and then make progress again- there isn't a one way that that happens and you just need to not feel defeated by it, and to, um, to just stay on that course and just do what works for you.

I think often when people give you advice, especially maybe somebody who was in a situation, and maybe they are considering themselves a survivor, maybe they have a grasp on it or not- they try to give you this advice of like, well, this is going to happen- and I think this applies to grief too, it is like this very, um, specific way this is going to- you're going to work through it. And that's just not the case. It's, it's so individualized and, what could trigger you, or set you back, or throw you off, or pause your healing, or however you want to word it, could be so specific and so unique to you that you really just need to just to show yourself the respect and kindness of allowing yourself to heal.

Yeah, and it's easy to compare ourselves and we were like really in peak comparison culture with social media and like, um, and I think even with like, the stages of grief, like they were created as a way to kind of help you, but now they're like this very literal thing, and that's like, not how grief works necessarily. Um, yeah. So I think just healing on your own time is really important, and I think we're always going to be works in progress and getting over something so traumatic. Um, maybe it was just like one physical, abusive situation, then you got out, but that could be more traumatic than somebody who was in a psychologically abusive relationship for five years. Like the way it affects everyone is different, and, um, those scars, whether we see them or not are very real. And you're the only one who can really be kind to yourself- I mean, you can surround yourself with good people, but like, you've got to be kind.

 And, uh, that's something my therapist really drove home with me, was, um, figuring out how to put myself first. She taught me the difference between but and and, because I was constantly, you know, with everything in my life at that time, I was- especially when I first started seeing her- there's always a but, and she's like, well, all these things can coexist, you know, there's an- if you put an 'and' instead of 'but'. All of these needs are actually equal, it's not like, well, this, but my needs go second, it's like, and my needs, you know, putting them on an equal- and that was a really important thing for me to understand. It's something, I, like- that can help me- help center me and help, um, remind me what my priorities are, if I'm like losing focus of that.

On Sharing Their Story

I have noticed a change over time. I don't think it would have- I would be as far along, if I hadn't dedicated that much time to therapy and prioritized it. And I'm very proud of myself for doing that. And I sometimes- especially like, within my- my family who I'm related to, um, I see these repeat situations and I just don't see anybody working or some, some certain members of the family, like working on any of this stuff. And, it makes me frustrated with them, but also proud of myself for having dedicated that much time to it, cause it wasn't easy. It was like really gritty and ugly for a long time, I mean, some of those sessions were just like awful, but really important.

So, yeah, I just kind of noticed that like over time I could just talk about things a little bit more candidly and I wouldn't necessarily have a breakdown or cry about it or, um, and it was usually in- in- in a way of dishing out advice to other people, often, I guess, younger people, but like, um- But yeah, yeah, I have felt that it's gotten easier and, you know, time definitely does heal things, but working on yourself and actually finding ways to heal.

On Reclaiming

For me, it's been the arts, I think because, um, you know, Mark was really negative about me being involved in the arts and- which is like so twisted and weird and dark, like it's fucking crazy. I can't see, like, wanting to put out somebody's light, like I just can't. Um, so yeah, that's been a big part of it. Definitely like being involved in nightlife, and getting back involved in music and DJ-ing, which is something I really didn't get back into until I was like 30. Um, which I had gotten involved in as a teenager, I fell in love with electronic music and started DJ-ing and, you know, tooled with stuff, but never really allowed myself to take it serious because of his attitude and you know, how he talked to me and treated me.

Um, so that's been a big part of it is- is, um, getting back involved in music and through that, building community. Which is something my partner has always been focused on, which I kind of didn't realize until I started doing it. So I'm like, one foot in front of the other, but, um, building community through the arts has been really empowering and great.

And then, um, as I think about myself getting older, and wanting my city to just be better. Helping other people, and lowering that barrier for them because with DJ-ing and producing music, there's a lot of costs. So, it's easy for people to kind of stay in the unprofessional realm. So kind of helping people bridge that gap so they can take on gigs in bigger cities and in other places and be a professional.

So that's um, that's a big part of myself it's been fun finding after- after that relationship was like my relationship with the arts and there not really being a right or wrong way to experience them. Because like, uh, I feel like my- the time I was with him, like there was a very like right and wrong, black and white thing, and it was like based off of his whims or perception. So just kind of like break free of that, um, but, it's interesting because I haven't really ever thought of that- I haven't thought about that so specifically until now.

Words of Care for Queer Survivors

I think with queer people we're often thrown to the wolves, which is sort of how I feel like with what happened with me. And especially like, once I was out too, I think my parents were just sort of like 'We don't want to deal with this. This is too complicated. Like, we're good'.

So I think it's important that we do look out for- for the youth all the way around, but especially within the queer community. Because very often, they're just like um, overlooked and kind of thrown by the wayside. So I- I think we don't get the representation, I mean, if you think about like, when we think of domestic violence, often we think of male- female and- and with queer people, our stories are so unique, I think it can be hard to kind of find your tribe. But, to work at it and to have a higher standard and to not just accept people who are nice to you or, you know- that's good, and there could be service level friendships, but to really feel understood, and to find your- your tribe and where you fit in. And that can change too, but, um, the better your peer group in the company you keep is, I think that's really going to help- help you be the best version of yourself.

And work through- work through things, um. Because I think when you're- when you feel understood- I think that's a big part of the queer narrative is not feeling understood, um, because we're just othered a lot. So, you know, it might be easier for like a male presenting gay man than like, a, you know, a trans kid or, you know, somebody in, in a different part of- under the queer umbrella. Um, but yeah, just to really surround yourself with people, with symbiotic relationships that actually stimulate you, and help you work towards your healing, and people who respect you, and respect your process, um, because we do often have to choose our own family. And I think that's why abusive people, there's so many predatory people who can take advantage and exploit you, because more often than not, you're not supported by your family and not- don't feel loved. Even if you're maybe physically supported, you don't necessarily feel loved or understood or- not every parent- you know, family situation, does it right, so...

On Affirmations

In times of self doubt, I remind myself that I'm a priority. And that's something that I wasn't for a long time, a big portion of my life, especially during developmental years. So, that's where the- the 'but' and the 'and' replacement really works for me, and that's something that comes up a lot. I do need to keep my needs on par with what other needs might be, um, or what other things need to happen. And I think that's like, a way for grounding and reminding myself, and sometimes it's been harder than others.

From Where I Speak

I speak as somebody who's proud of who I am, and I speak as somebody who has overcome a lot. And learning to ask for help and actually accepting it.

I speak as someone who wants better for our community, and wants to bring people together and see their potential, and have a higher standard for what they accept.

I speak as someone who believes in bringing people together and finding community outside of the traditional family realm, which often rejects us. And at this point, that's pretty much been what I would consider my life's work, like, what I've done in the last nine years and the experiences people have shared with me, I know I've made an impact on a lot of people's lives.

I, [laughs] by no means am I fixed, but I speak as somebody who has survived and figured out ways to thrive. And, I'm lucky I've had people who I've been able to surround myself with- that isn't luck- that was like something I've worked towards. But, surrounding myself with people who stimulate and, um, really look out for me and help- help keep my life on track, and people I can spill my guts to, and just like, lay it all out, and have them be there for me without judgment.